Author Topic: Ugliness and low taste should exist for good?  (Read 3059 times)

LUSha Offline cn

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Ugliness and low taste should exist for good?
« on: January 05, 2013, 02:05:52 »
Me again lady (always) with questions this time
Want to talk about the existence and necessarity of ugliness and low tastes, of what i saw.

Music:

I recently (forced to) watch (and listen to) one incredibly stupid music video with terrible song, whose name i don't want to mention. But it gets interesting, as all the people who spread the song(as virus marketing) never give positive comments, Kritics treat it as a joke. But but but....it's so popular so i wonder

Why are stupid songs always more popular and why people love to spread them more than good or elegant ones they find?
And why its popularities simply grow as criticism grows? If people destain the low quality why spread it more frequently as neat ones?

TV show:
Also something popular here in recent years, some guests were invited to a show, talk something totally naive, or without commen sense, or, they dress up terribly and with a ridiculous atitude. Guess what, they get same attention as those songs,
they are so much talked, discussed.
So what is behind the mind of people, who watch a stupid show, laughing at those guests and spread them even further.
What kind of fun and pleasure in concrete do they get when they laugh and sneer?

Products and package
Also with design...I once loathe all the ugly package designs here i see. But I start to think, not all products with beautifully neat package design gets popular and sometimes it seems ugly ones are very necessary.
There's a brand of hair shampoo and a brand of facial cream in China, both were founded in early 70's to 80's, they got incredibly low taste and rough in packaging . The product is easy to use with low price.

They in recent years changed strategy in marketing and make a more 'up to date' package design and remarketing it...and i saw so many negative comments even concerning that their content has changed...design and package look better, the product is the same, and suddenly people don't want it any more.

Besides nostalgic mood, why do you think they react like this?
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« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2013, 03:49:17 »
Sha Sha!


I think this "dumbing down" society is due to lack of will to thoroughly listen/read/analyze. Once people are done with their work or whatever, they want to go home and simplify everything. I think people are drawn to what is simple and catchy if they are too "busy" with other things. Then out of spite and boredom, they plague the internet with negative comments and reviews. Perhaps, some want to "simplify" to avoid stress or life problems. As for the tv shows, I think those kind of "reality talk shows" are very scripted and made to entertain those who once again, don't really want to participate in thinking but need fast action/dramatic entertainment. I'm not sure how it is abroad, but those shows are usually catered in the morning-afternoon weekday hours and most people who are out working/studying don't see them (unless they watch late evening re-reruns). It is quite biased in many ways. Granted, I think we all have gotten sucked into these media traps at least one time or another. It's hard to avoid in a generation where everything is digitized and advertisements are like locust.

LUSha Offline cn

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Antw:Ugliness and low taste should exist for good?
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2013, 13:49:11 »
ansthsia  ;D
Interesting....so you got a point i think for the pressure releasing reason. I also wonder about the low taste in design/quality of music, so does it give people less pressure als good ones?

About the stupid tv show or music video, another thing i find interesting, is when two people together, when they talke about the stupid tv show or that music video as i said above, if one does not know then another will strongly suggest him take a look...then suddenly it seems that they shared something exciting, shared something in common, by laughing and picking at stupidity of the third party, and that brings them together...that is very...very mysterious and interesting to me...don't know if there's any reason for this
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WalkAbout Offline fr

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Antw:Ugliness and low taste should exist for good?
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2013, 16:20:25 »

About the stupid tv show or music video, another thing i find interesting, is when two people together, when they talke about the stupid tv show or that music video as i said above, if one does not know then another will strongly suggest him take a look...then suddenly it seems that they shared something exciting, shared something in common, by laughing and picking at stupidity of the third party, and that brings them together...that is very...very mysterious and interesting to me...don't know if there's any reason for this
I think you yourself have answered on your question here :) One of the basic things people need is a feeling of being accepted. Sneering and laughing at the same thing is a bound of being accepted, sharing the same understanding of what deserves to be sneered at. Sneering is an easier way of being accepted, because people would readily sneer at something than protect it, for it takes less energy, for one thing, and you don't need to fear being not accepted if disproving the practice, that's why sometimes people laugh at things they don't feel like laughing about if everyone else is laughing. The more people laugh at these things, the more new people would come in and laugh at it for being accepted through sharing something in common. Stupid/low taste/ridiculous/etc is understood by everyone, you don't need to spend much energy analyzing (I agree here with Anastasiya), so you get the feeling of being accepted easier. The same reason why there are always some "ridiculous" outcasts in shools, at workplaces, etc. It's one of the mechanisms of how society as a system works. Take it out and all would end in ruin and chaos.

Oh, forgot to add... Also, usually when people sneer at something, they show that they're better than this they're laughing at. A pleasant feeling, isn't it? ;)

As about products and package...you say that the product is cheap, don't you? I believe it's chosen by people that consciously or subconsciouly think that they don't deserve a better/good/costly product, so when the quality of the product package changed to the better they got a signal that "the product might be good/is good", but they don't need a good product, for they don't deserve it, and that leads to disappointment, and when you feel disappointed, you surely would find a reason for it.

Human psychology is really a dark place))) not evil, just dim)))
« Last Edit: January 05, 2013, 16:33:02 by WalkAbout »
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Grazia Offline ru

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Antw:Ugliness and low taste should exist for good?
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2013, 22:12:58 »
ehhh, people are build such way, that they just love sensations, bad news, something they can discuss, they love balance, and from time to time switch to something awkward just to see how awkward it is and to comment and talk and discuss.
what about packages renewing, it's the matter of recognizing the product, but on the other hand - design is such a multi-sided thing you know, I can say I really love old-style ads and rough gray cardboard packages, they are so cosy))) what about the quality they say, when Marlboro made this pesky slider pack, they put there cigarettes with some new filter which was salty and changed the taste of tobacco, sometimes it's true!
and my main thought is that everything need be balanced, without shit we won't fully enjoy all the goodness, we would get bored and overfilled)))
Greetings from St.Pete

Fannie Offline mx

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Antw:Ugliness and low taste should exist for good?
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2013, 02:21:16 »
Well, I'm agree with Nina, I think it is because people don't want to find out more music or products, as the comercial ones still there appearing everywhere people do not dare to search beyond, and when they hear or see something different, they find it so strange and they don't analyze those things, I think, because it scares them in some way. So they think that the comercial products, music, TV shows,... are the best and they are good with this idea. People, as well, tries to be "fashion" doing, buying, watching and listening the same as others although these things are not what really fills and satisfies them, but if the other people accept it, it's good. So sad.

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« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2013, 03:12:56 »
My view is that we all have this 'low taste' within us. We are not always intellectual and superior and well-read and etc etc etc. Something inside of us still looks for the 'easy' entertainment. But of caurse, our snobbiness makes us feel ashamed of that. So it makes us hide it in sarcasm, and we give it low critics and mock at it with airs of superiority because we want to make it very clear that our taste is much better than it...
These shows, songs, pictures you tag as 'incredibly stupid' and 'superficial' are usually based on attractive combinations of words, sounds and colours that demand no effort to the mind to enjoy. Merely a pleasent stimulus to the sences (I'm including here simple jokes and allusions to sex). That's what basic entertainment is called and we long for it since we're babies. Even though we grew up and learnt to appreciate the beauty of a terribly fucking sad poem from Tilo... Easy is always nice.

Kitty Offline be

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« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2013, 11:38:43 »
I think I read a couple of things whith which I agree... first of all I think indeed like Nina says (and related to that Severdul's expression that for some reason we sometimes tend to feel ashamed to like things a lot of other people dislike and mock at) when a lot sneer you just sneer along even if you don't really know why just because all others are doing so; swimming along is always easier than swimming against the stream ... I think it's always a dangerous things to call something "bad music", "bad art", "bad movies", "bad design", "bad books" etc. just recently for example I got a discussion on my sis's wall on facebook about the last hype amongst the books "fifty shades of grey" I haven't read the book so I can"t judge if I'd be of the same opinion...but for that reason I can still give a neutral opinion... this is a real hype, enormous amounts of copies are sold within very short time, everyone speaks about it and a lot of women specially are full of it... my sis knows a few writers who apparently dislike it (without even have read it) and when my sis wrote, she doesn't really understand the hype, she apparently doesn't really enjoy the story/writing style etc. she got comments like "why have you bought it in first place", "every child knows it's a bad book" from these writers, people who should I think more than others be aware of what it must be like to have your work and creation broken down like they did ...at a specific moment they even started denigrating the readership of the book and making it less worthy than their own readers... I think, there is a difference between critisising from own experience plus the way you do it or saying "this writer sucks, this book sucks"... no matter what kinda art/creation you talk about there will most likely always be people who like it for whatever reason you might not understand, adore it and are fan of it and I think by denigrating this art or the creator of it you denigrate and critise all people who actually like it. To like or dislike something is always a matter of taste... and I never understood why there's been made the disticintion between high literature and pulp for people who write pulp have a talent just as big as those who write expensive language which even the most literate people have difficulties understanding it... people who write pulp have the talent of entertaining a lot of people, of giving them the chance to escape reality for some moments, to leave stress behind ... is that high literature? I donno, probably not... but to me it's sometimes worth more than books of which I need to re-read the pages three times because there are too many words I don't knew the existence of. I hope my point is made here... I think we should be careful by using words like "crappy", "stupid", "bad" in a common way when talking about our own taste. I dislike R&b most of the time, but that doesn't take away that I have respect for people who're able to create such a thing.

something superficial is a must I think from time to time to reduce the seriousness of life. To me great artists are people who have a bit of humblenessand a big imagination/creative mind... and who don't think they re-invented warm water. I know that there are guidelines to what is great art and worthy of an exibhition and what is just amateur art, not worthy of big public...and still you'll see indeed that a lot of people tend to actually like amateur art often more than what is called big art (a bit the story with fifty shades of grey and the so called high-literature writers my sis knows)... I often have my doubts when I walk through a museum and see things there which is made a big fuss about that I do wonder "why is this art? this is nothing special, this is just a duplication of massive other similar statues that are made"... what is art? you should answer that question for you in first place... what is art, when is something for you personally well made, good quality, inventive, new (as to me  art should bring something new) ... for I think every kinda creation is a form of art...like music, telivision, design, statues, paintings...etc. I think there lays the answer to your question... the reason I think that this to you crap art is popular with a lot of people is probably because you have other expectations from art/other visions of what art is than those people...

A hype works the same way as sneering I think by the way... a hype exists because people probably become afraid to criticise something that most others like... I just think of Twilight there for example, I wouldn't dare saying "I don't like twilight" in the shop :D because just massive people like it... I wouldn't know if I like it (twilight) by the way, because I usually avoid hypes and try them out when the hype is over so I'm able to form my opinion without outside force to like it. I am able to say that I hate hypes for that reason though...

As for things that are of such bad quality that everyone can see it ...why do you still like it? I have a soapserie like that, I adore watching it though it is a silly plot that keeps repeating itself with different details the entire soap through for years and years by now ... it started as German telenovella but became so popular over the entire world that they keep extending it ... I love it and I often watch it because its entertaining capacity. Because it makes me dream, because it makes me forget daily routine for some time. And there are other programs like this, programs that don't really have a content, are not spectacular in relation to the way they're made but which have a high entertainement level and that's I think what television is about in first place... I don't watch television often, because I prefer reading a book or playing music above it but I don't mind watching "silly" programs.
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LadyMalina Offline es

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« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2013, 12:32:55 »
In my opinion, talking about tastes, about what is low taste or "high" taste, is dangerous, I agree with Kitty in this.
Who is the one saying what is good music/art/literature/television? Why is something considered good because is mainstream? or...what is something considered good just because it's loved by few minorities?

I have had different experiences towards the topic.
You know, though I am generally far from mainstream tastes, it is impossible to avoid to know what's going on in the world: what is the top-ten songs on the radio, or the fashion tendencies in the shops, the most watched programme or the most famous books. Sometimes I fall in the mistake or tagging some of this in the category of stupid or silly, because I dislike it or I dont see any depth or feelings in them and for example, in the case of music, because I really consider the sounds are repetitive and without creativity, the lyrics are absolutely without feelings or something of the sort. I say it is a mistake because what may be stupid for me, for other people is worthy, and I have leanrt it having the experience at home. My sis is what everyone would call "a normal" girl: we have been talking about the topic and she keeps telling me she likes pop-music or the top ten music chart just because she likes, and I dont think she is stupid or her tastes are worse than mine just because I like less comercial music.
Same for books: I prefer the tales of E.A Poe than the Twilight saga (I have read all of them), but why should be my taste better than this of the people that like Twilight?

Maybe the quality of some mainstream products are lower than the quality of other products that are not meant for the mases, because they just want to create new products that will be the best for some weeks and after that nobody will remember about them: maybe this products are meant to be "eternal", I dont know about marketing (and I hate marketing, because I hate the idea of promoting a product in a wild way just to make people like and buy it). But sometimes we tend to consider all the mainstream in this category. But how to distinguish?

For example, talking about music again, here in Spain there is a radio programme who keeps playing the same songs for a period of time, everyday the same songs, everyday, and then, when the season changes , they introduce new songs...Well, which of these songs are worthy and which not if they are played in the same programme for the same purposes? I dont listen to this programme, just when my sis plays it on her radio, and I have heard there from the "Gangam style" to songs of Lady Gaga or Adele: is it any difference on them? For example, for me it isnt, because I dont like any of these artists :p, but maybe there are people that considers a sacrilegy mixing Gangam style with LadyGaga and so on...

For TV series, well, I agree with the girls: sometimes people (and I am included on this) just arrive back home from studies or work and they just want to relax, even watching stupid stuff: there is a Spanish sit-com from some years ago that was re-launched some years ago, and I keep watching it when I am stressed or even depressed, because it is funny and makes me forget about my sorrows for this moment: the argument of the series is not special at all, but maybe my mind just wants it and not arise strong emotions that come when I watch my beloved movies or a deeper programme.
And there are other programmes that are (in my opinion) soooooo bad and with sooooo low quality (the gossip programmes and most reality shows), and lots of people watch it, maybe for the same reason I watch Sitcoms...I think this is sooo low taste, but who I am to ensure that?

On the other hand, I have lived the same problem even within a "urban tribe" (I dislike this expression, but dont find a better one), I have remarked this distinctions. I have been into Gothic subculture for some years now and even in a ambience out of the mainstream some people tend to clasiffy tastes and create a "mainstream within Gothic". For example, some goths tend to say that the music from some bands that are more popular are not "underground" anymore are low quality and belong to mainstream already: I myself have been told sometimes I am a "posser" just because I listen to Lacrimosa, since it is a more popular band now, and with fans that are not radically Goth (or not Goth at all). Some goths are already sooo purists that for them just the very very very underground music is the worthy music and everything else is mainstream or "posser".  For them some tastes considered Goth by the mainstream are low tastes and they are the only having high tastes because they listen/read/admire art for minorities or maybe more deep art in the content (according to them)

Taste is a question of the person individuality plus other outer factors: people create stuff for people: some stuff are meant to be liked for a bigger number of people and other stuff are meant for minorities. Generally, people agree on the low quality or the hight quality of something, but there will always a person that might disagree with these opinions....That's why I think that stating something as good or low quality is dangerous, even though everyone do this, everyone, including me, of course.
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WalkAbout Offline fr

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« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2013, 12:47:32 »
You're too kind. I believe that excessive kindness to low taste things leads to stagnation of both art and mind. Culture is won by perseverance and hard work, and that's a hard battle. And if people find something to be pulp, nobody has a right to say them to stop expressing their opinion. BTW, I find Twilight series to be much ado about nothing, i.e. total pulp.

P.S. I don't find anything bad in being a snotty snob XD. I disagree that "Easy is always nice". It's too easy to slide down, I prefer a harder path up the mountain.

Quote
Same for books: I prefer the tales of E.A Poe than the Twilight saga (I have read all of them), but why should be my taste better than this of the people that like Twilight?
For economical reasons. If you don't speak about it in the end only things like Twilight would stay. Producing something different would be too hard, nobody would give money for that (what for? people take THIS, why care for more?..). Do you know how hard it is to find a proper book these days in Russian [proper like GEB or a copy of Penrose or something]? I wouldn't ever be able to read some books if I didn't know English or couldn't afford buying on Amazon only because mainstream in Russia doesn't need this. Letting low taste rule leads to degradation (and death to museums, art collections, classical music and literature, opera and theatre...).
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LadyMalina Offline es

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Antw:Ugliness and low taste should exist for good?
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2013, 13:29:26 »
You're too kind. I believe that excessive kindness to low taste things leads to stagnation of both art and mind. Culture is won by perseverance and hard work, and that's a hard battle. And if people find something to be pulp, nobody has a right to say them to stop expressing their opinion. BTW, I find Twilight series to be much ado about nothing, i.e. total pulp.

P.S. I don't find anything bad in being a snotty snob XD. I disagree that "Easy is always nice". It's too easy to slide down, I prefer a harder path up the mountain.


I dont think in my case is for kindness...I mean, I just wonder who is the one that has to stand the best criteria, and that finally leads me to think that it is a question of each one to decide, and after having had big arguments about this with people with different and (for me) bad tastes I led to the conclusion of simply telling my opinion without thinking is the best, and respecting (or trying to) even when for me it's impossible to understand how a person can like something that for my sensibility is a pure crap. I am not one of these people that say: everything is ok, but are very critical with what I listen to/admire/like.

I understand compeltely what you mean and I am one of these that feel bad because in my country the culture is completely opposed to my way of feeling and I also have to look thoroughly for stuff I want on the Internet, or have to travel abroad to find stuff I like because in my country there isnt. Or when there are hardly performances of classical music/opera because in my country there is not a tradition of great composers and then I have to spend a
fortune, because, as you say, nobody wants to invest on it here.

Of course Easy is NOT always nice, and culture is won by hard work, but evaluating which product is the result of hard work or not, is difficult, at least in my opinion. And of course, I sometimes think that when luck, talent or whatever takes part, some work that is the product of hard work is not of big quality and sometimes a product that has been made easily, is very good.
†  Lady Malina †. Minister of Gothic Sensibility